Just LOL...

[15:09] serjourn daxter: FREEDOM CONTINENT NOT REPRESENTED AT SLB10 - I have no idea what is happening, but our application to be represented at the 10th Birthday of SecondLife has been DECLINED. So what do we do? We can scream and protest - sluk and grumble or.....  MAKE OUR OWN DARN SLB 10 EXHIBIT!  So CALLING ALL THAT CAN and WANT TO HELP!. Send me a notecard with the name "SLB10 ADULT". This is a great opportunity to show what adult SL stands for. Please respond!

... Hmmm just lemme think for a nano-second as to why it might have been declined! 

Fake traffic count?

I wasn't greeted or spoken to, again.  13th visit now in my alt, so I am getting used to it.   This is the new build.  Oh dear Lord, what's this new hub design? A wedding cake?

Either that or it's a prison modelled on WW2 camp watch towers.   It's horrid, whatever it is.   

YAY more ad boards all over the entry point!  I feel at right back home now!  (I won't mention how the textures are getting on the boards)

Oh this is a new addition to the environment.  What is this?  Is this management's idea of appreciating the morons' sweat and blood that runs the Adult Hub?  Hmm nice, I guess.  Better late than never although not sure why it needs to be such a public display of affection considering it is for staff; it's positioned right in the public landing zone.  Alt-Boy shrugs.

Now, I wanna take up this traffic point...   I had an issue right back at the beginning of my tenure at Adult Hub Central that the Gor Hub had bots in a sky box...  I mean like 12 bots just in there to bump up the traffic count.   They know the technology.  I watched them for hours.  I have photographic evidence.  I reminded Serj that having un-registered bots on her land was going against ToS and to be fair to her, she passed it onto Randy-Ravena and they were removed.

But...   interesting mind-set.   The Management have recently been spouting how they have had 250000 visitors.    Patting themselves on their backs and whatnot.   (Let's not forget 'a visitor' is an avatar that stays for 5 mins.  If they stay for 10 mins, they are counted for 2 visitors.)

In my opinion they are using the dance poles at the hub as traffic boosters.  I am not sure if they are bots, alts or a mixture of both with a member or two of Management using Radegast to supply their boosted traffic count.  For one, you try going to the hub and getting any of the pole dancers to actually respond to you.  They don't.  Well maybe one in a hundred tries, I have had a response. I have sat for hours at the hub and watched these dancers and they don't get tipped, they don't talk, they don't change/remove their clothing, they don't respond when spoken to in Local Chat or IM.  I have even tipped them in the hope of getting reply, no, nothing.  They do nothing.   There are no 'customers' to dance to...    they just dance around on their poles for hours and hours on end in an empty space and in silence.  I have been around for long enough to know exactly how genuine pole dancers work.  No pole dancer would stay more than 10 mins in a place where there were no people and where there were no tips.   And noobs would stop on dance poles for even less.  

I mean, these two pole dancers have freebie stuff on, they have no profile, they were even created on the same day!  

Yet, they are parked for hours on these dance poles in total silence?  

Multiply this action by the many poles they have at the new hub and Hey Presto!  Traffic count looks brilliant!  And a great way to defraud advertisers/shop rentals who look at their traffic count and think maybe it's a good place to spend their advertising budget.  It is deceitful behaviour, at best.  Sure, I am putting 2 and 2 together and making 4, with no evidence, but I invite you to take a wander over there and enjoy a pole dance from one of these dancers and see if you don't come up with the same conclusion I have. And if anyone does have any evidence?  Chuck it my way, I will be more than happy to accept it. 

Lag

My alt popped over to Adult Hub Central today and hung around for 30 minutes.  Not once did any staff greet me, or speak to me.  I wasn't the only one either, I would say after me... in the 30 mins I was there, maybe 50 people came in behind me and they weren't greeted or spoken to either.

It was a very good idea of Serj's to tell managers to make an alt and experience the dreadful process of visiting the hub.  It really does show up how awful it is.

On the plus side, I did witness Isabelle doing some actual work ie helping someone.  Now, lowly-peasant-staff-without-an-important-title-about-your-heads, you will know I am telling the truth here.  Those with Adult Hub Owner tags above their heads are the ones that do no work to contribute to the helping of the noobs who arrive there.  They like to wield their power in their special little ways but only so long as it means they can look and feel important without putting themselves out at all.  God-forbid they actually do any work.  No.  No.   I refer back to Leona's Open Statement, who as the Hub manager after me, experienced the problem herself.  None of the people who Serj considers her "Key Personnel" actually do any work other than haughtily swan around with their creepy doll-like nylon hair flowing out behind them.

So it was a very pleasant surprise to see Isabelle actually doing some work for a change with a real noob.  YAY for Isabelle and YAY for the change in attitude.  I think this blog will have a great affect!  Keep it up, Isabelle.  And you try and drag some more of those other Adult Hub Owner tag bearers to spend some time helping noobs too while ya at it.  I don't mean just standing there looking important, either.  I mean, taking a noob and teaching them what they want to know.  Every minute volunteered contributes to the goodness of the sim and I wanna see much more of them in that hub WORKING and not leaving it to the stupid folks like I was, and like Leona who worked our arses off while the important people smiled and nodded at us.  Work damn-it, Work!

But this is a shame...

The sim is one huge great big lag-fest.  No seriously...  I can't moveeeeeeeeeeeeeeee at the place.  Which is no bad thing as there isn't anything to see anyway, but that aside...  I have no idea what it is that's causing it.  Maybe it is indeed the massive art thing, or maybe it is the high rez textures at the rezzing point, or maybe it is the avatars that come in.  

Look at this script data so wonderfully provided by the sim.   This is completely as I would expect it to be.  These are mostly noobs arriving, noobs with no or little scripts...  I was near the very bottom, GREEN.  YAY for me.  Good boy Forceme-Alt.  Then a few oranges which were the more established residents, staff and whatever, but who is at the top?  Tut.  Tut.  Tut.  Isabelle.  Look at you!  RED Not an Adult Hub Owner right at the top, surely doing their best to lag out their own sim?!  325 scripts for goodness sake!  

How is that contributing to the nice experience that noobs (Don't you love that word, Isabelle?) will have when they visit the sim.  You really outta make an effort to reduce that.  You do look lovely and hmm well err, nice all geared-up in your hmm whatever they ares booty-things and cuffs and whatnots, but it is kinda selfish to be using all that sim resource to the detriment of the noob-experience.  And I think it is a really bad example to set to everyone else as the leader of the Adult Hub project to have such a high script count.  I shall be keeping an eye on you young errrrrr lady.  I hope I don't see you at the top of the list again!  

Silence the outspoken!

The big M got me.  I am banned from the hubs.  Awwww what is it that they say?

Freedom includes the right to say what others may object to and resent…The essence of citizenship is to be tolerant of strong and provocative words. ~ John G. Diefenbaker

What's your place called "The Freedom Continent"?   HAHAHAHA!

Silencing me by banning me from the hubs will not work.  It will make me only more resolute to expose what goes on there.   Where does banning me fit on your Banning Policy?  This experience of mine is only replicating what is complained about by many visitors to the hubs.  That is... hub staff ban to punish people they don't like which is exactly what the hub Banning Policy strictly and clearly says staff must not do.

I have had 5 conversations sent to me today between Hub Staff, regarding this blog and my words.   You lot really outta be more careful about what you say to who, you know.  So despite what is being banded about in these conversations, and in the blog comments here and in Local Chat at the hub... I have never used an alt to attend the hubs or any of the associated sims.

I will now thooooo!   Mmmhahahahahaha.   You will never know where I am.

Aww what a shame!

Oh dear...    when I go to my favourite blogs to go and re-read, I suddenly find theadultblog.blogspot.com has now been taken down.

Blog has been removed

Sorry, the blog at theadulthub.blogspot.com has been removed. This address is not available for new blogs.

Forceme Silverspar perks up tho!  At least they are on the ball!  It only took them 2 hours to remove it after I published my last post.  Good job I managed to save the banner, at least!  Wouldn't want such literary truth and beauty disappearing entirely.  

What Education?

I have lifted this from theadulthub.blogspot.com 's banner.

Main blog for the Adult Hub, a series of five hubs based in the Freedom Continent of Second Life. A privately owned hub, given a project by Linden Lab to provide an educational resource to the new age-verified members of the Second Life Community. This blog aims to help keep people informed of key events in the five hubs, new developments and provide links to information, calendars, and even the odd review on places that matter to tour guests.

I would like to just have a poke around at it.

A series of five hubs...   Hmm nope.  Four hubs, although I am fairly sure that won't continue for long if recent events have anything to do with it.

A privately owned hub, given a project by Linden lab to provide an educational resource to the new age-verified members of the Second Life community.  Well... where do I start?  Yes, it is privately owned (And therefore needs to be paid for in real money, a lot real dollars) And yes, LL gave them the workload to set up the project.  Which, I still maintain, is a brilliant idea.  However, I get unstuck here... 'to provide an educational resource'; I'd like to examine what education they provide.

They provide one notecard that tells people how to use and spend money in SL (Funny where they see their priorities in terms of what new Residents need to know, don't you think?) and there are Guides who help people who arrive although the quality of the help varies enormously.  Most really can't be bothered to go through the endless samey questions that they get asked day in and day out.   Only a few can be bothered to even say hello to a new person let alone spend an hour with someone who wants to know how to know how to unpack a box.  If anyone wants to question this fact, one only needs to read Serj's own words at her recent managers' meeting where she encourages managers to create alts and experience the crap reception and help people get at the hub as a noob.  Oh as a matter of interest, what a fabulous way to manage people and foster trust in workers... spy on them!  Secret Shopper indeed.  What Serj fails to realise is that these people are volunteers and untrained and don't deserve to be spied on.  If she needs to do the Secret Shopper experience, then she needs to provide back up and training and proper payment.  She can't take, take, take from people, shoot them when they do wrong and expect people to be OK about it.

The word education used in this context is a slight on real education that goes on around the grid.  Their education relies heavily, in fact, entirely, on one-on-one man-hours.   The most ineffectual way to teach mass people.   There are no classes at the hub, no stand alone learning activities, no notecards to address the ones who prefer to quiet learners, there is nothing other than "How to spend your money in my hub' and mostly ineffectual and bored Guides.  It is quite a disgrace that Serj has allowed this brilliant project to descend into the gutter, surrounded by a pole dancing club and empty ad-boards, covered in lag and stupid gestures, sprinkled with untrained and spied-on members of staff. Quite disgraceful, indeed.

Pole dancing club is the main feature of the Adult hub; so much for 'education'.

This blog aims to help keep people informed of key events in the five hubs, new developments and provide links to information, calendars and even the off review on places that matter to tour guests.  There has not been a post on this blog since April 2012, so well over 9 months.  It is hardly keeping people up with events, is it?  Is it true that no key events have happened in that time?  Hm, probably.  Links to information?  Well, there is a link to the Virwox Linden Exchange.  Money money money, AGAIN?!  Hawhaw.  No links to freebie blogs, hunt blogs, newbie blogs,  you know, links that new people to SL would be interested in?  No.  Just a link on how to get money into SL.  Calendars?  Hmm, no, no calendars, because there are no events, maybe?  There is a kinda review, but it's nothing to do with the FC or the hubs.   And it is not really (At all) a review; just a photo opportunity.

How to ruin and destroy a brilliant concept.   The Adult Hub.

How many unrented boards?

New residents are routed through to the Adult hub by LL and what are they greeted with?  BLACK!  BLACK! BLACK!  Now, I happen to like black, in all sorts of contexts, but being encased in a fence of black un-rented ad boards is not the way to make new residents think, "Hey, this SL stuff is great!"

I'm in a bloody COFFIN!

How many empty ad boards do you need to know that ad boards were never going to work at the Adult Hub Central?  Well?  Well?  Was I right?!  Yes, I was! 

Finally found RR!

I found Ravena.  Dear Ravena.

ravena.decuir: hello forceme..
Forceme Silverspar: Hi there.
ravena.decuir: how are you?
Forceme Silverspar: Are you still isabella's owner?
ravena.decuir: yes.
Forceme Silverspar: I'm good thanks.
Forceme Silverspar: Are you aware of what she is telling the audience at Adult Hub about my classes? The classes you had hosted here for all that time?
ravena.decuir: ???
Forceme Silverspar: I am disappointed about what she is telling the audience of mostly new people at Central hub about my classes.
Forceme Silverspar: I was wondering if you are aware of her thoughts about them. Seeing as her owner had them hosted here at her school for such a long time.
ravena.decuir: to my knowledge she has never mentioned your classes.
Forceme Silverspar: Oh she has. I had a conversation sent to me.
Forceme Silverspar: It is quite disgusting.
ravena.decuir: then i suggest you take it up with her she is due here soon.
Forceme Silverspar: OK
ravena.decuir: but please do it in im..
Forceme Silverspar: I would have thought you might like to be interested as you are her owner, and you hosted my classes, and she is doing this at the central hub.
Forceme Silverspar: But nevermind.
Forceme Silverspar: I will take it up with her.
ravena.decuir: ok.. as for me taking your classes all i ever did was give you room and space to do your classes here nothing more and i never once interfered with them.
Forceme Silverspar: I'll wait for isabella, thanks.
ravena.decuir): as you wish.
Forceme Silverspar: As per your suggestion.

(Does she understand the word 'host'?)

So I waited for dizzy-izzy and spoke with her when it looked like she was free.

Forceme Silverspar: Are you busy isabelle?
isabelle.kostolany: I don't believe we have anything to say to each other, forceme
Forceme Silverspar: Really?
isabelle.kostolany: really
Forceme Silverspar smiles, OK. Wonderful.

isabelle is the one who put out child avatars out as freebies at The Adult Hub (Hawhaw) and she is also the one who refused to speak with me about some nazi-type ejects by hub staff from my Freedom Continent group that people were complaining to me about, the result of which was, I ejected everyone and closed the group.   I didn't want my name associated with the actions that I was being told about.  The reasons why people were being ejected and banned from Adult Hub were disgraceful.  For example, when FL information was not being given when hub staff were demanding it.  No.  My name wasn't going to be linked with that behaviour.

And she still doesn't want to talk with me.  No really, that's fine.   I'll talk to myself then.   Dear Diary...

Leona's Open Letter

I thought this might be interesting to read as it is an "Open Statement" written 3 months ago by lilfae, AKA Leona, AKA iDoll or whatever is taking his pleasure this week.   He of course retracted all his words here when he rebecame a manager of the Adult Hub.  Have to say, in his clarity of mind, everything he says about the Adult Hub is true.

Dear everyone.

I have decided that this is a game I will not play any more. And this time, I am serious, no amount of talking will get me to return to this project you call 'The Adult Hubs'.

My reasons are fairly simple; Everyone claims they wish for it to succeed, but only a few, and I mean like, three, actually want that. The others are just 'yes men'. Those who want it to succeed, as long as they don't have to do anything.  Since day one, I have tried everything, to make them welcoming, friendly, and even keeled.  I did not have the skills to manage the central hub, but I did it, because they meant something to me.  They officially do not, any more.

They are a lag fest, filled with contradiction, and people who care only about what they can get from it. Be it money, or a place to socialise.  We've gone from being even-keeled, unbiased, giving both sides of a story, to everything in SL to better inform our clientele, to a U-turn, where, as long as we get people, it no longer matters what else goes on.  I really hate myself for saying this, but I believe Forceme was actually GOOD, for the Hubs. She had a terrible personality, but she got things done, and did so in spite of others. And very often, on her own. I now know how that feels, and I actually feel sorry for her being gone.

You want this place to succeed, you need to take a long hard look at yourselves here. Because saying you want something, and taking steps to actually achieve it, are two different things.  And most of you lack that foresight.

For nearly a month, I've tried to get a website up, for you, all of you, to use. How many of you actually contributed? About 3, and of those, one is new to staff, I hope you don't burn him out, like you've burned me out, he deserves better too.

I will continue to work on this site, and I will continue to do so, in spite of the complete and utter lack of help you wish to provide.  I don't expect it to succeed on my own, but it's become apparent, that the only way it will ever even get off the ground, is if I do every little bit myself. 

If this letter jars the wrong people, and it's decided that I be fired. I will hand over the passwords to the site, and surrender it, unlike some, I believe what I do for the community stays there.  But you will not see me again in the continent after.

I wish you all luck in the future.

Leona. 
P.S. remove me from the estate managers lists. I will leave the group itself shortly after posting this.

Reporting a "serious violation of ToS" is harassment @ Adult Hub

I don't know exactly why I am doing it, other than it amuses me and it is incredible fun for me.  I love to see these churls puff up and spew.  All I have to do is open my mouth just once and just a little and there they go!  The geyser erupts.  I can't actually believe how much attention they give me.  I wonder sometimes if it is my imagination, but it isn't honestly.  All I have to do is open my mouth and I have a zillion Hub Owners and Staff bark at my command.  I play with them like little toy soldiers and they just don't see that that is exactly what I am doing.   I say bark, they bark! 

Here is today's contribution to the Forceme Silverspar's entertainment programme.  dustbunny.walcott is a hub worker and sin.ushimawa wears a tag of "Adult Hub Owner".  (Yes, yet another one)

suckingtombradysdick is apparently a 1 day old avatar but I stake my shoes that this is an alt.  She stands in the hub and calls out, 'who owns this place?'.  Some 10 mins later she perks up again.

[15:33] suckingtombradysdick: ok whoever owns this place please kick out this guy who is harrasing me

And she pastes in Local Chat the IM that she was having with another fellow Hub visitor.

[15:33] suckingtombradysdick: [15:32] Resident: you are so hot, baby [15:32] suckingtombradysdick: oh well tell me how you really feel lol  [15:33] Resident: i feel like pulling your panties off and licking your pussy

I'd been silent for near on 45 mins, and I thought this could be fun.

[15:34] Forceme Silverspar coughs.
[15:34] antere: I know that feeling. I always feel like that :O
[15:34] adlin93: haha i cant say that word at all or it comes up ugh
[15:35] Lucan Lykin: hands forceme a cough drop
[15:35] Forceme Silverspar: Why is that harassing you, you asked him to tell you how he really feels, so he did.

That's true right?  And Dusty is a peasant worker of staff at the hub.   No special Hub Owner tag for her although from what I can see, she is the one who does all the work!

[15:35] dustbunny.walcott: i sympathise, but cutting and pasting private IM into local chat is a serious violatiojn ot TOS, so please don't do it again

Indeed, Dusty!  Pasting private IMs into Local Chat is a serious violation of ToS.  Well done for telling her.

[15:35] suckingtombradysdick: i was being sarcastic jeeze take a hint

Hmm, so suckingtombradysdick hints, and because he doesn't get her hint, he is harassing her?  I would expect if it is an important issue of stopping harassment then it deserves more than a hint.  In any case, I don't consider what she said a hint anyway.  I mean, she is stood in Adult Hub Central, with a rating of A, with a name of suckingtombradysdick  and she pisses her knickers over an IM?   Dear, dear.  Really, was she expecting to have a conversation about the hadron collider, maybe?  So I thought her a straff and decided to play with her too. 

[15:35] suckingtombradysdick: ok sorry dusty
[15:35] adlin93: its from 'family guy spin-off'
[15:36] Forceme Silverspar: I am Abuse Reporting you, "suckingtombradysstick" for a vialotation of ToS.
[15:36] suckingtombradysdick: TOS?
[15:36] wiccanshaz: terms of service
[15:36] sin.ushimawa: who is doing it suck?
[15:36] alliene: they wont listen
[15:36] adlin93: ohhhh shit goin down
[15:37] wiccanshaz: how about we all just calm down a bit and avoid those u dont want to talk to. If there are any issues, please come directly to a staff member and we will sort it out

Calm down?  Calm down?  I haven't even started yet!

[15:37] suckingtombradysdick: understood wiccan
[15:39] whitelillie: hey Judas
[15:39]dustbunny.walcott: and forceme, i think you've been the source of enough hard feelings around here in your career wihtout ARin new people

I have no idea why dustbunny.walcott would think that being the source of other people's hard feelings has anything to do with me AR'ing people who break ToS.  Someone explain that to me.

[15:39] sin.ushimawa: I would agree

She would, because other than puff and spew, she can think of no original words for herself.  "Me sheep, me bahhhhh a lot"

[15:40] Forceme Silverspar: Surely you don't condone the breaking of ToS here at Adult Hub Central?

True right?  I think they should be thanking me for being bothered to keep their place clean from the reputation that it is OK to break ToS at their hub. 

[15:40] dustbunny.walcott: i told her the rules, now she knows better

She read the rules when she signed her name on the ToS agreement.   Oh does the hub think that noobs have the right to break ToS?

[15:41] sin.ushimawa: that is up to the person thet was viloated others doing it is picking nits
[15:41] Forceme Silverspar: That doesn't answer my question. It is every resident's responsibility to police this world, LL don't do it. I happen to take my responsibility seriously.
[15:42] Forceme Silverspar: You call it, nit-pick. That's OK.
[15:42] pharaoh73: hello ladies amazing monday
[15:42] sin.ushimawa: Forcme, dont test Me

OMG!     BIG M, I am just quaking in my boots!  Test you how exactly?  Are you suggesting and modelling the fact that people can break ToS and other people need to ignore that?  Is this the culture that Adult Hub is  encouraging.  And when someone like me who does what LL have said we need to do, that is, police ourselves, that that is the wrong behaviour to exude?  I would have thought that Linden lab Terms of Service should come above any small-world, political and personal anxieties?

[15:42] dustbunny.walcott: if you wanna harass new poeple, take it someplace else

Soooooooooooooooooooooooo, picking up on a "serious ToS violation", to use her own words, is harassment?  SOMEONE EXPLAIN THESE PEOPLE TO ME!  They don't come from the same planet as I do.

[15:42] whitelillie: Hello PH and yes it is
[15:42] whitelillie: I feel you Judas
[15:42] whitelillie whispers: yep!
[15:43] Forceme Silverspar: She broke ToS - as you said "a serious violation". I don't consider it harassment. I call AR'ing her my duty.
[15:44] sin.ushimawa: you seem ever so eager to do your "duty"

Yes. This is true.  Doing my duty is important to me.  As it was when I worked 24/7 for three months at Central Hub.  And all on my own, jumping every hurdle that idiots, churls and ignorants put in front of me.  You enjoyed the fruits of my duty then, didn't you?

[15:44] dustbunny.walcott: do what you feel you must. any further mention of teh subject will be treated as disturbing the peace and dealt with approprioately
[15:44] Forceme Silverspar smiles.

Hang about, I ain't the one doing the mentioning.  I told suck-a-dick that I was ARing her and the rest of the conversation was initiated by these two cheese-puffs.

I am still on the hunt for Randy-Ravena, but I am enjoying this all the same.

Adult Hub rules

Respect EVERYONE and ALL are welcome here.

Kinda interesting rules #1 and #2 considering what the Hub owner and the Hub Manager Without Brief decided to say in Local Chat in front of all the audience they had at Adult Hub.

Lovely staff

From after I left Central hub yesterday in local chat in front everyone...

isabelle who wears Hub Owner tag
lilfae who is a Hub Manager Without Brief

isabelle.kostolany: welcome back, leona - you missed forceme's departure :)
lilfae: Oh did I? Darn
isabelle.kostolany: I thought you'd be upset :)
lilfae: I'll get the Febreeze out shall I?
isabelle.kostolany: I think she was trying to score some points - I'm not entirely sure why though :)
lilfae: I thought for a moment, she was going to advertise her classes
isabelle.kostolany: I like to think of them as a way of how not to do things :)
lilfae: Yes, but lesson 1 is an oxymoron; Don't do the classes.. xD
isabelle.kostolany: lots of people go to them, and she has quite a reputation - but I have been to one, which went of for three days (or it seemed like it), where she 'assassinated' someone's profile
lilfae: Oh, she actually holds them?
isabelle.kostolany: an acquired taste, let's say :)
lilfae: I thought she got Bouncing Box to
isabelle.kostolany: this was some time ago - it was the first and last class of hers that I went to
lilfae: I went to one myself once, I felt like I outclassed the curriculum
isabelle.kostolany: ah, you just have to forget everything you have learned about D/s when you go to a forceme class :)
lilfae: You realise though, she's probably still here in another form? QUeen of the alternate? :)
isabelle.kostolany: oh, naturally :)
lilfae: Have to sidestep those Terms of Service some how, right?

from isabelle, whose owner invited me to teach my classes at her school, whose school I taught at for so long and who begged me to stay teaching there after I left FC.  Yet my classes which were the mainstay of her mistress' school were so crap, now she tells her audience at Central hub?

And from lilfae who attended many of my classes, and who praised them often to me and to others and who wrote this about me to everyone about my work at Central hub... "I really hate myself for saying this, but I believe Forceme was actually GOOD, for the Hubs. She had a terrible personality, but she got things done, and did so in spite of others. And very often, on her own. I now know how that feels, and I actually feel sorry for her being gone." in her open statement just three months ago. 

What a pair of silly boys they are.  And the four people who IMed me after I had gone and sent me the convo they were having think very little of them both now.  Slagging off me and my classes did nothing for their reputation and gained me more supporters.  They both have the political acumen of a carrot which is why the hubs will never succeed.